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Evgeny Katyshev: “OpenStreetMap is not suitable for any information”



Evgeny Katyshev is a UX designer and tourist from Nizhny Novgorod who has dedicated OpenStreetMap for the past 11 years. He is one of the few RU-OSM community members who not only came up with several of his tags, but also successfully approved them. How he managed it, why to do it and why people lose interest in OSM - he told all this in an interview.

- How and when did you meet the OSM project?

- I read about it at the beginning of 2009 on Wikipedia, of which I was an active participant before joining OSM, then I registered in it . On Wikipedia, I was creating articles about the settlements of the Nizhny Novgorod region, there was a goal - I wanted to create an article about each of them. In total there are more than 4 thousand, but most of them knew only the name and coordinates. In the end, I just entered the coordinates of all the settlements in OSM.

- What are you interested in OSM? Still, drawing a map is not the most common hobby.

- Since childhood, I was attracted to cards: I always liked to study them, see what and where is marked on them - there is some kind of magic and charm in all this. Then, when I got older, I began to engage in tourism. What a trip without maps? At some point, I thought about what would be nice if I had the opportunity to refine the map myself, since they tend to become obsolete. And somewhere at the same time I found out about OSM. Therefore, he immediately interested me. That was what I needed. But then I didn’t have a navigator, and therefore I couldn’t use my work - I was just drawing for fun, because my little dream came true: I liked to mess around with maps, and now I also began to draw them myself.

- What was the OSM community in 2009? What was going on in it?

- The forum was active. In Nizhny Novgorod, no one else drew except me (at least, it seemed to me). Although someone before me walked along it well and noted a lot. I also remember that at that time there were enough discussions around how and what to celebrate. Many, now becoming the basis of the project, tagging schemes did not exist. They just appeared, discussions were going on, votes were passing. Everything was for the first time and again.

Then there was a short period when in Nizhny Novgorod there was an active local community. At that time, we conducted several sofa cartopaths using the MapCraft service - we remotely drew different districts of the city by satellite. And there were even several offline lectures about OSM that I and another Nizhny Novgorod participant gave. But then it all came to naught.


Evgeny Katyshev leads the " Evening of the Cards " in Nizhny Novgorod

- Why do you think this happened? How many OSM cartographers are there in Nizhny Novgorod?

- Those who actively draw - about 15 people. We communicate closely in our local Telegram chat . By the way, we have not only OSM participants: there are guys from the People’s Yandex.Maps. And we communicate and share information quite normally, if someone finds out that somewhere something has changed in the city or region, then he writes in a chat room and each in his service updates the map.

But still, this activity is not what it was before. Previously, people, roughly speaking, drunkenly and in one fell swoop painted blocks, villages, or even entire areas. Now this is not there, everyone corrects a little: the store will be added, the address will be clarified, the error will be corrected. Of course, now much has already been mapped, but still, there is still work to do, but nobody is doing this.

Why? Because, as it seems to me, in major cities, commercial card services outperformed OSM in terms of coverage quality and the number of POIs. And many of those who drew a map in OSM simply do not understand why they should do it now, if there are already decent services that you can simply take and start using. And everything is there, nothing needs to be drawn and time wasted on it. In addition, no one is involved in community development in OSM. People need interactivity: meetings, communication and involvement in something great in order to somehow explain to themselves why they are doing this.

But I’ll say a few words in the direction of OSM: as soon as you leave the city, you immediately fall into his kingdom. Where others have a void or just a forest, in OSM - forest paths, springs and other objects. While they still continue to draw. At the moment, in this territory he has no competitors.

“Do you continue to map?”

- Yes, but not so active. Basically, I remember this when I’m going to rest somewhere. This happens as follows, for example, we decided to get out with friends to nature, I immediately write the GPS track of our trip, along the way I take notes . After that, already at home, I upload them to OSM and slowly, somewhere within a week, as I have free time, I work out. I edit the map in JOSM .



- Was it difficult for you to get comfortable with OSM? Understand its rules and understand the tagging system?

- No, it was easy for me. But, of course, there were times when I made mistakes. Once inattentively read an article on WikiOSMand incorrectly noted some object in half the city, I don’t remember what exactly. They made a remark to me. And then I sat and returned everything back. Since then has become more attentive. If you do something wrong, the OSM community will quickly correct and guide you on the right path. In addition, a habit gradually develops, if you can’t understand something or doubt something, you go and ask the community about it. Most likely, this issue has already been discussed more than once.

- Do you use OSM data in your personal life? Or for work?

- At work - no, only in personal. And then mainly for orientation during hiking. I prepare a map of the area I need and upload it to the Garmin navigator or to the phone where I have the OSMAnd mobile application. Earlier, I also took paper printouts of satellite images and maps, including OSM, just in case. But now I’m practically not doing it.

A few more times I used OSM data to visualize certain information entered into it. Once, together with my comrades, I made a map of public transport in Nizhny Novgorod. We analyzed the route network and watched how it covers the city. But I note that earlier I spent an incredible amount of time to bring all these routes to OSM.

- I have repeatedly heard that public transport routes and OSM are not very friendly yet. Why do you think so?

- Firstly, the community has not yet decided how to contribute them to OSM. There is a certain scheme that, let’s say, has taken root. However, everyone still does as he is closer and more understandable. Therefore, in each city there are small differences and nuances, but not critical.
The second follows from this - since there is no single tagging scheme, there is not a single good tool with which you could easily and quickly introduce them. Now this process requires a lot of experience and perseverance from the cartographer.

Thirdly, information about routes is stored in such a way that it is very easy to break them, which often happens when newcomers begin to correct roads. But at the same time, it is very difficult to modify them, that is, update them, because in life the routes change from time to time. In addition, when a lot of routes have been introduced, they begin to bother you on the map and you can no longer easily and easily redraw some road or mark a new roundabout. In such cases, you have to almost completely redo everything from scratch.
These are the main reasons why I stopped making public transport routes into OSM and keeping them up to date. For myself, I decided that until something changes in this regard, I do not do this.

- What should happen to solve these problems?

- I think that one of the major players in the IT market should be interested in this, since the solution to these problems does not lie on the surface and most likely requires the close participation of many specialists at once, and what about the salary. I suppose that these data could improve the routing, because with their help it is possible to lay routes from point A to point B, taking into account the movement of public transport. But so far this has not happened and is unlikely to happen in the future. It is worth recognizing that OSM is not suitable for any information. Public transport routes are one of them. It is probably better to store them separately and in a more convenient place for this.

- As far as I know, you came up with several new tags in OSM that "took root" and were approved by the community. Tell us about it.

- Yes that's right. At one time I loved to draw mountains, including a lot of attention paid to the ridges. But the problem was that before in OSM there were not so many tags to denote various objects and entities related to this topic. Then I decided to fix it - I proposed several of my solutions. One of them is the natural = arete tag , which is currently used in OSM more than 2 thousand times. I also suggested marking drying streams and rivers with the intermittent = yes tag , it was used almost 3 million times. Who would have thought?


Map " Architecture of Nizhny Novgorod "

- How it works - the adoption of a new tag in OSM?

- There is a certain procedure that must be completed. It is described in detail.in WikiOSM. But in short, first you create in a special section of WikiOSM a page on which, by template, always in English, you describe the essence of your proposals: what tag do you offer, what is it for, how many times have it been used, are there any analogues in OSM, etc. After you do this by mailing on the "Tagging" mailing list. In this way, you inform the community that you have an idea. Then you wait two weeks. During this time, interested parties should submit their comments and suggestions to you. The discussion usually takes place on the tag page in WikiOSM. According to its results, you may have to make some changes to the description or the tagging scheme itself. The next step is voting. It lasts two weeks and also begins with a mailing list. If the majority voted for your proposal,then his WikiOSM page from a special section is transferred to the main one and becomes part of the project documentation, and the tag is considered accepted. So there’s nothing complicated about it.

- Why go through this procedure if the OSM says: “Did not find the right tag? Create your own and use it! ”

- Good question. It is better to consider it with some specific example. Suppose you came to OSM and decided to draw your yard. Well, that’s all you noted, except for one urn. For everything else, there are tags, but for urns, no. What to do? Such situations, by the way, often happen.

There are three ways a cartographer can go. First, you can simply not mark the bins and wait until the approved tag appears in WikiOSM. Most often this happens. But so we lose a lot of useful information. The second is to come up with your own tag and mark the ballot boxes with it. This is done less often, as experienced participants know that in this case the information you have submitted will not be displayed on any render and no one will know about it in the end. The third is to come up with your own tag, mark the ballot boxes with it, and also invite everyone else to mark the ballot boxes in this way. Which of these is the most productive? I think the answer is obvious.

I also believe that the more good and simple tagging schemes we come up with and accept for all occasions, the lower we will make the threshold for entering the project for beginners. Because when an inexperienced cartographer does not find a description in WikiOSM for interesting or necessary entities, then he either starts to put the wrong tags, or simply gradually loses interest in the project.

- What advice would you give to those who decide to “promote” their tag in OSM?

- First, think hard: does OSM really need the information for which you want to come up with your own unique tag? If really needed, then only three tips. First, clearly follow the instructions for accepting new tags provided in WikiOSM. No need to invent anything of your own. The community will not understand you. Secondly, try to make the most simple and understandable tagging scheme and description to it. The harder it is, the less likely it is to be approved. Thirdly, be patient and be prepared to hear the opinions of other participants. In the best case, you can manage in 1.5 months, but you need to be prepared for the fact that the period can increase up to 3-4 months.



- What do you like about OSM? What do not like? What would you do better?

- Personally, as I said, there are not enough quality tools. If you look at how this is with the OSM conditional competitor, People’s Yandex.Map, they are much better there. Even if there isn’t such a freedom of action in the NJC, there is a more convenient and simple mapping process there. I think if someone in OSM does this, then he will have a little more participants.

- Maybe you have some interesting story related to OSM?

- Not so long ago, the company and I went for a walk beyond the Volga - to water meadows. I was guided, of course, by OSM. And so we go, we go, and suddenly I see on the navigator that the map ends abruptly - just a white field and that's all, not a single object. I think to myself: “Well, how so? But doesn’t it happen? At least something must be painted! ”

He returned home, opened a map, began to look who was drawing it. It turned out that this is the work of my hands. Apparently, 6 years ago, when I was drawing this territory, at some point I was tired of it and I abandoned it, did not finish it. On the one hand, it’s nice that I walked half the way along an excellent map, which I myself drew, but on the other, it’s unpleasant that the second half is empty only because I left it myself at one time. Therefore, the conclusion is this: draw more often and more, your edits will definitely come in handy for someone.

- What do you say to the person who asks you: “Why are you drawing a map in OSM?”

- In this regard, I have the following quite logical theory. We can say that OSM is, to a certain extent, a mutual assistance fund, but only the accumulation and provision of not money, but information about a particular place.

I draw the places where I personally have been and which I know well. And while I'm sure that someone on the other side of the world is doing exactly the same as me. Each of us draws a map in its place. And when I get ready to go there, I will already have information about that location, because someone who lives there has already drawn everything. And when he is going to visit me, he will also see a well-drawn city, since I did not doze off. Everyone does what he knows and thanks to this he has the opportunity to get a map of the territory that he does not know.

- What do you say at the end of the conversation?

- If you have not tried drawing a map in OSM, it’s worth a try. I believe that it is still relevant for small cities and towns, which are not very interesting to large commercial card services. Therefore, if you take the time and mark in your village at least shops and main attractions, then you will do a great job and definitely help someone. In addition, you can now enter data into OSM directly from your mobile phone: through the Maps.Me and OSMAnd applications. I myself do so often.

Communication of Russian OpenStreetMap participants is in the Telegram chat room and on the forum .
There are also groups on social networks VKontakte , Facebook , but they mainly publish news.

→ Join OSM!


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